Our ReVolt Pub

First post... Hello Re-Volt Pub!

I have two suggestions for the Re-Volt 1.2 development team.

First suggestion... I think it would be cool if there were multiple AI settings for Re-Volt 1.2 that determine how the AI reacts. There could be about three or four settings -- an easy setting, a setting similar to what there is now and, if possible, one or two settings that are more challenging. It might make the game more beginner/expert friendly.

Second suggestion... I think it would look really cool if there were a render option for oil slicks/ball bearings/cars/etc to reflect their surroundings dynamically. Not sure what kind of system requirements it would take to run this, but as long as it is an option to turn it off/on, why not?

Not sure if either of these suggestions have been previously made or not, so I apologize if they have.

I completely agree with the first suggestion. Some people asked for this before.
Probably it was out of the plan of the developers because it might be hard to implement but I hope it can be re-introduced since it has good reasons to be suggested.

One of the reasons is basically because the game was already hard in 1999 when we played it for the first time, and that was attractive of course, but at least back then there were chances to win a race for us new players. But with this new perfectioned AI it is almost impossible for any non-expert player to win a race.

And the soul of the 1.2 project what is? Not only to make a patch for the expert players but also to attract many new players which is what will keep the community alive for many more years.

I'm not criticizing the new AI at all and I'm sure Mandolin is not doing it either. I love it, it is magnificient for me, and I have so much fun with it for example when I made my Pest Control video the battle I had offline was so much fun. But.. I have to admit that it is not beginner friendly and I wish this could be fixed.

I'll quote something that was posted in Revolt Live some time ago so you understand:

Spamiditas @ Revolt Live wrote:Its not about the handling or the speed. Its about the AI. I rarely win a race on Junior RC, since AI cars are always faster than me in championships, no matter which car I use. [...] Shouldn't Junior RC be some kind of kids difficulty or something? Handling and speed should be truncated enough so my five year old daughter can run a lap with rare crashes into random scenery but of course the AI beats the crap out of her. And me, that is.

I've been trying to get my nephews to play the game too, and it's true.. The new AI just beats the crap of of them. They have to downgrade to have a better experience but that won't go very well on Windows 7.

4 AI settings would be too much I think, 2 settings convining a less challenging AI similar to v1.1's (activated by default) and an advanced AI like what we have now (can be activated from Options menu) would be just perfect.

Just my 5 cents on the subject.

Totally agree with Phan. 2 difficulty settings would be enough. As I heard, iOS (iphone/pod/pad) version of game has implemented an easy mode, if it's too hard for players. Dunno how it works though.

I very much agree. It's wonderful what the AI _can_ do with 1.2 and "Expert AI", but it should not be forced on newbies.

I like what Phantom said. The new AI and physics are big improvements that I am a huge fan of and I know those must be extremely difficult and time-consuming to make for whoever is working on programming them into Re-Volt. I might have been going out on a limb suggesting a harder setting, but definitely the easier setting would attract more people to the game, and it probably wouldn't be nearly as difficult to make as a hard setting would. I do think that if we're leaning toward easier settings that there should be some sort of medium between the two, like there could be a very easy setting for younger kids and a slightly more challenging "Normal" setting than what is available now for people who might still be getting used to the game, then of course there would be the awesome AI that the developers are working on now that would be the "Hard" setting. And the difficulty level changes would probably fit in best if changed under game options instead of having to pick them every time like the car physics selection (Junior RC, Console, etc.).

AI difficulty level would be cool. Reflections on Oil Slicks... yeah, why not.


AI is awesome right now IMO, I'm not a part of the elite RV players but still, I'm pretty good at racing games and right now with balanced cars the challenge is epic.


On some tracks I even got the feeling that if AI took all the shortcuts and best routes I could only keep up and not pass them(excluding pick ups).

VaiDuX461 @ Dec 30 2012, 11:45 AM wrote: Totally agree with Phan. 2 difficulty settings would be enough.

A simple solution for Easy AI would be to reduce the original top speed of your opponent's cars. If it is implemented that way then you can implement Medium AI and Difficult AI.

Easy AI = 60% top speed
Medium AI = 80% top speed
Difficult AI = The current AI

yea, ai should be configurable but as DEV feature!
and RACEITBETTER (to modify car ingame )

nero @ Jan 5 2013, 01:12 PM wrote: A simple solution for Easy AI would be to reduce the original top speed of your opponent's cars. If it is implemented that way then you can implement Medium AI and Difficult AI.

Easy AI = 60% top speed
Medium AI = 80% top speed
Difficult AI = The current AI

I was thinking that exact thing yesterday! That would be a great yet simple way to implement difficulty settings for the 1.2 team. I second that plan and strongly suggest that the 1.2 team consider it.

Sorry to say this, but I can't agree with the idea of reducing the top speed of the AI to fix this problem. The problem itself is not the top speed of the opponents since it is logical for the cars to have the speed they have compared to our own car, the problem (for any new player) is the perfect way that the AI takes shortcuts, recovers from attacks, etc.

Playing against opponents which don't have the real top speed will make the game to lose coherence in my opinion. For example, if I use RC Bandit on Silver Cup, my car will be a little faster in terms of top speed than RC San or Aquasonic. That will be weird to see and it changes too much the original way of re-volt's gameplay which tries to establish limits between the ratings for having a certain top speed.

Remember that if this suggestion is implemented, the Easier AI will be On by default. So the gameplay of the default mode should be as identical to Re-Volt 1.10 as possible.

What I'm trying to say, is that I played ReVolt when it was v1.0/1.1, and it was great, so I would like the future players to feel the same thing I did when they play the game for the first time.

I have to agree with Phantom here. Globally changing the speed for all the enemy cars seems like an easy solution (which it definitely is) but it has too much effects on the gameplay that make the whole game unbalanced.

Maybe it would be possible to introduce certain sloppy mistakes of the AI that gives them more time for each difficulty to recover from certain actions?
I remember the old AI taking a really long time when they were on their back that they would recover from that.
Also the whole "driving backwards" thingy (which occurs mostly in tunnels) is a great increase of difficulty and advantage for the AI that should only be enabled on higher difficulties imo.

I don't know the AI code so I have no idea what's easy to do and what's not but I believe the above things should be possible and make the game easier for some players without affecting the overall gameplay too much.
Another possible improvement would be the decision of the AI when to take shortcuts and when not (less chance on lower difficulties).

Isn't it possible to have both the old and the new AI in the game? So the 'easy' (or rather 'normal') setting would be the old, and the difficult would be the new. It sounds simple for me, but I don't know anything about programming, and these sorts of stuff.

yea, ai should be configurable but as DEV feature!
and RACEITBETTER (to modify car ingame biggrin.gif)

Why as dev feature? This makes no sense... get off!

Balint12 @ Jan 6 2013, 07:58 AM wrote: Isn't it possible to have both the old and the new AI in the game? So the 'easy' (or rather 'normal') setting would be the old, and the difficult would be the new. It sounds simple for me, but I don't know anything about programming, and these sorts of stuff.

+1
Exactly this. As Vaid said, 2 difficulty settings will be enough. One containing the classic 1.1 AI enabled by default, and the new perfect AI which can be activated through game options. A third setting will be pointless.

Why the classic AI activated by default? CityWalker explains it just perfectly:

CW wrote:I very much agree. It's wonderful what the AI _can_ do with 1.2 and "Expert AI", but it should not be forced on newbies.

In my opinion 2 would be enough, but most games uses 3 or 4 difficulty settings (I don't say it should be for this game, but could be).
So here's my other variant (4 or 3 difficulty settings):
Easy - worse than v1.0/v1.1 (maybe similar to iOS version one, called as "Easy mode")
Normal - same as v1.0/v1.1
Hard - same as in latest v1.2 alpha (what we have now)
Difficult/Extreme - if it would be possible, without major game modifications.

VaiDux’s Difficult/Extreme setting would then perhaps be the “Expert AI Stocks” pack, which should start working well if Huki truly restored the V1.1 classic AI.

Besides, with reduced speed the AI cars make even less mistakes at 80% and 60% speed = slow, but inhumanly precise (I know, I tried ).

Quite a good suggestion anyway! ^^

Ok, that does make sense about the speeds and I agree. I started out playing with Re-Volt 1.1 from an original CD a pretty long time ago, when I was about 10 or so. I was able to get the hang of the game fairly quickly, and I wouldn't have wanted the game to be any easier or else it wouldn't have been as fun. But if I had started out with Re-Volt 1.2, I think that it might've turned me away for a while just because I wouldn't have been able to win anything. But as a couple of people have said, there are some who want to play the game that are only 5 years old. So an easier setting than 1.1 might should be included. As stated, most games do have at least three difficulty settings, so three really wouldn't be excessive. And I'm all for a fourth setting that is even harder if the whole "expert AI" thing works out!

There are already 4 difficulty settings in Re-Volt. They do however affect only the global game physics and car behaviour (all cars are affected) and don't affect the enemy AI (at least not my knowledge, if this is wrong please correct me).

So if this really ends with implementing the old AI as an alternative I would suggest to put an additional option in the "Game Settings" menu that switches between the old and new AI. And by default (fresh install) it is set to the old AI so new players don't experience the "difficult game" immediately.

There are already 4 difficulty settings in Re-Volt. They do however affect only the global game physics and car behaviour (all cars are affected) and don't affect the enemy AI (at least not my knowledge, if this is wrong please correct me).

I would classify the four "difficulty" settings (Junior RC, Console, Arcade and Simulation) as personal preferences rather than difficulty levels. The lower settings don't really make it much easier to win races IMO. There is still a definite need for the actual AI to have different difficulty settings to truly allow a good racing experience for all ages and experience levels.

So if this really ends with implementing the old AI as an alternative I would suggest to put an additional option in the "Game Settings" menu that switches between the old and new AI. And by default (fresh install) it is set to the old AI so new players don't experience the "difficult game" immediately.

Agreed. And maybe (just a suggestion to throw out there) it would be a good idea to include some added incentive to use the more difficult settings, like an additional game mode similar to the added Clockwork Carnage mode for collecting the stunt track stars. That way people don't just use the easy mode all the time; they will actually get better. Once people learn to play with the harder setting (with the benefit of unlocking something brand new), they will enjoy the challenge of the 1.2 AI more.

Sorry for the double post, but another idea just popped into my head.

Re-volt car makers have created cars for the game that are much faster than even the pro class cars. And when you try to race with Pro class cars while the faster cars are installed, it makes winning a race almost impossible even for the most skilled racers. So, my second suggestion (pertaining to AI difficulty levels) is that Jigibren or Huki or whoever else works on this project add in one or two additional classes. My suggestions for class names are "Super Pro" (cars that are just a little better than the stock Pro cars) and "Master" (for only the cars with elite parameters that can drive very fast and not crash). I know for a fact that this is possible because if you enter in class numbers beyond 4 to the parameters, it will change, but it will start displaying the engine types (Electric, Glow, Special) as the class, which is actually pretty interesting. This new feature would be beneficial for everyone, not just beginners. Of course, all of the cars that are currently available online that would fit into one of these two categories would need to be updated upon the implementation of this feature, but with the help of several people, that shouldn't take very long (only the "Class" parameter setting would need to be updated to either 5 or 6).

No special motivation is necessary for using a more difficult AI. As the player’s driving skills increase with practice, some people will naturally want a challenge like they had in the beginning, so they switch to better AI. And later with mad skillz they switch to even better AI, for the same reason – to restore the challenge. Why rub it on their nose if they are going to use it anyway, as soon as they feel confident enough?
And some people never go to harder AI because they like it easy, they like their advantage that they won with practice. Why persuade them to a new challenge if it is clearly not their style of driving/playing/living?

Bottom line – some people like a challenge and some don’t (example: this community ). The only way to satisfy both opposites is to let them chose for themselves. The option is in their view anyway, just like the Junior-Arcade-Simulation options are in view every time they go to play.

And on the other subject: the idea of SuperPro/HyperPro (or whatchawannacallit ) has been proposed before and I second, third and fourth it with both hands (and feet ).

Citywalker @ Jan 9 2013, 09:47 AM wrote: some people like a challenge and some don't (example: this community ).

The amount of truth in this statement applied to this community is stunning.

Btw, I fifth with both hands up too the support of a higher rating than Pro called Super Pro, but I'm not sure about a higher one than this since the term Master does not seem to fit. A better discussion about this would do well in case this suceeds. This should be take up to the consideration of some car makers since they can describe more precisely what word defines to an overpowered car.

The terminology always used in forums, sites (even the old RVA), rankings, etc has always been SuperPro, but never has been decided anything for higher than SuperPro, only the words God, Mega, Ultra which do not convince me very much. Just don't choose anything like Elite, Master, or Max. Overpowered cars don't fit this label.

Phantom @ Jan 9 2013, 04:46 PM wrote: Just don't choose anything like Elite, Master, or Max. Overpowered cars don't fit this label.

Agreed!
In my understanding a 'Master' car would be a car that fits perfectly to its class, whether it is Rookie, Pro, or anything else.
I support the making of the 'superpro' class, but anything beyond that is unnecessary in my opinion. Any cars which are noticably faster than the others in a category after Pro class (superpro), are overpowered, I can only see them as experimental projects.

Just don't choose anything like Elite, Master, or Max. Overpowered cars don't fit this label.

Whatever name floats your boat is fine with me as long as higher classes are available. But if you look at the other names, they all are associated with a skill level (Rookie, Amateur, Advanced). For classes beyond Super Pro, what comes to my mind is All-Star, Legendary, etc. But anything is fine

I support the making of the 'superpro' class, but anything beyond that is unnecessary in my opinion. Any cars which are noticably faster than the others in a category after Pro class (superpro), are overpowered, I can only see them as experimental projects.

Super Pro should definitely be included because there are cars out there that can beat any true Pro class car, but there are cars out there that can blow even lower-end Super Pro-worthy cars away, and many of these have good all-around parameters besides just speed. For example, cars that just have a top speed of 60 mph wouldn't necessarily make it into the higher classes. They must be able to win 90% of the time by a margin. Handling is just as important.

Please refer to SuperPro as Rating, which is associated with a skill level as you correctly say (Rookie -> Advanced -> Pro).

Class is something completely different, more associated with the engine type of the car (Electric or Glow).

Phantom @ Jan 9 2013, 07:20 PM wrote: Please refer to SuperPro as Rating, which is associated with a skill level as you correctly say (Rookie -> Advanced -> Pro).

Class is something completely different, more associated with the engine type of the car (Electric or Glow).

My b.

Mandolin @ Jan 10 2013, 04:27 AM wrote:

Phantom @ Jan 9 2013, 07:20 PM wrote: Please refer to SuperPro as Rating, which is associated with a skill level as you correctly say (Rookie -> Advanced -> Pro).

Class is something completely different, more associated with the engine type of the car (Electric or Glow).

My b.

And mine... ooooops

Most games like some people here already said are using difficulty settings - easy, medium, hard. I think this is the best choice and I also do not agree about reducing the speed even their intelligence. For what Im thinking is: Some of the racing game which I had played have a separate code which determines how many and mistakes the AI could do. In this way it will be very funny to drive on easy (for me it's very funny to prank the AI) and also the newbies (Im too) will win the game without too much problems. Normal will be the normal AI from 1.1 and Hard could ve even harder than now.

That's my suggestion.

Any more input from anyone else about this? AI difficulty levels seems to be a very popular idea (second largest number comments for a single topic in this forum ). The more positive comments about it the more likely it will be implemented I figure.