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Really, why does nearly every single custom car, regardless of its real life characteristics have 4WD and is classified as Pro.

Really i dont dig 4WD planes, trucks in Pro class.

Nearly no one creates Rookie/Amateur/Advanced cars. Everyone is up there in Pro class, once a while there's a Semi Pro car.


Im quite sure it would be way better if custom cars were more diverse and every class would be getting some attention, and there would be FWD, RWD, 4WD cars.

Sad truth is that not everyone bothers doing that and they just take Toyeca's params, add a bit of top speed and acceleration, set its frictions to lolhuge amounts like 5.0 and thats it.

When did this start? Was it always like that?
Why do i like asking questions?

4WD parameters are much easier to play with than 2WD. I prefer RWDs over the other two, and FWD over 4WD. All of my conversions are set according to the real life car. Same for weight.

ElvenAvenger @ May 31 2011, 03:38 PM wrote:Sad truth is that not everyone bothers doing that and they just take Toyeca's params, add a bit of top speed and acceleration, set its frictions to lolhuge amounts like 5.0 and thats it.

The last time i did something similar was with the 3000GT VR-4, since the real life car is 4WD and heavy.

I know RV is just a game, but i think adding 4WD to cars that are supposed to be pure RWD (Silvias, AE86, Ferraris*, muscles) is something ridiculous.

RV car makers can be purists or not.

*Yeah, i've heard about the FF, the 408 and that the modern Lambos are 4WD.

I've done some non-Pro cars. I'll list them later if you wish.

I have no problem when the car IS 4WD in real life.

But when someone posts 4WD muscle cars with ultra high top speeds and grippy handling, or just goes ahead and sets the top speed to 200 mph, its too much.


I just hate when someone gets the most basic, as simple as it can get details about a car.
Like turning a RWD into FWD, or FWD into 4WD and so on.


I can understand it if someone simply did his best in params. But IMO if you are converting a car that does exist in real life it should at least have the right drive.

Im not hating on Pro class either. Its just that nearly everyone's cars are 4WD and go over 70 km/h, have better acceleration than most if not every RV car and also perfect handling. You could download 20 very different cars and notice that they are pretty much the same with minor differences in performance and obviously the visuals.

I was just wondering why did this happen. There are so many great tracks, and same goes for cars, but you dont find people doing the same thing over and over again with tracks.
(unless they are purely lego, then its hard not to)

maybe it also has to do something with the fact that 90% of the rc cars irl is 4wd regardless of being supercar, muscle car, or regular street car.
And most of them have the "perfect" handling
mainly because fwd and rwd are much much harder to control with the powers of the rc cars nowadays

i don't really care about the 4wd fact

but i do agree with the top speed part, the top speed some (a lot) cars is just way too high compared to the RV stockers, on a lot of tracks those cars are near impossible to control
i also would like to see more lower class custom cars instead of only pro

synasthesia @ May 31 2011, 06:00 PM wrote: mainly because fwd and rwd are much much harder to control with the powers of the rc cars nowadays

I think it's because of the way the 2WD stock cars were set. Look at AMW, Pest Control & Aquasonic. I think those cars gave RWD a bad reputation.

Well, basically, the problem is in human nature. Noob wants to win races –> Noob makes a car to win races –> Noob gets instant gratification –> Woohoo! Noob releases the car for others to have instant gratification.

That’s the basic cycle. And then there’s the other section of car-makers - those who want a driving experience, not instant gratification. We make cars for that, and you are looking for that. We’re a minority, but we do exist.

So, bottom line – make yourself a list of the car authors whose cars you like, and browse on that basis. From the top of my head: MOH, Cat, me (Citywalker), theMeandMe, Nero, Adamodell, even Halogaland, etc. Basically most of those who are active in the Re-Volt Live forum.

I kind of agree with you Citywalker, though I think it's the speed and not the goal of winning that drives people to make fast cars.

ElvenAvenger wrote: I was just wondering why did this happen. There are so many great tracks, and same goes for cars, but you dont find people doing the same thing over and over again with tracks.
(unless they are purely lego, then its hard not to)

Question is how you would do the same thing over and over again with tracks. Are you thinking graphics-wise or? Tracks doesn't exactly have any parameters to be copied except for the *.inf file which barely can be counted as such.

I completely agree with you ElvenAvenger. I always wanted to make a pack of cars that couldn't go faster then 43 mph (69 km/h), but have it cons and pros.

As example,

BlueBird (I just think about a name).

45 mph

slow acceleration

medium handling

low stability (goes out of control easily)

perfect weight (1.9 kg)

This is how I think about cars. There are pros and cons, which make them fair!

R6

urnemanden @ Jun 2 2011, 10:26 AM wrote: I kind of agree with you Citywalker, though I think it's the speed and not the goal of winning that drives people to make fast cars.

ElvenAvenger wrote: I was just wondering why did this happen. There are so many great tracks, and same goes for cars, but you dont find people doing the same thing over and over again with tracks.
(unless they are purely lego, then its hard not to)

Question is how you would do the same thing over and over again with tracks. Are you thinking graphics-wise or? Tracks doesn't exactly have any parameters to be copied except for the *.inf file which barely can be counted as such.

What i meant is that most tracks are really diverse, if we are talking about full extreme or lego extreme. As for cars, very often i find that there are tons of cars which handle very similarly to each other while their real life counterparts are very different.

And its not even about realism anymore, its just that i dont like when i have 50 cars and 40 out of those are copies in terms of performance with a different body and textures on, with minor acceleration/top speed differences.



And winning with cars that arent perfect is fun for me. I just took Pest Control and decided to win Gold Cup. It was tough but in the end i managed to do it.

The game's Re-Volt. It is an RC racing game made in 1999. The cars don't have to inherit anything or handle anything like their real life counterparts- and honestly can handle about the same depending on the intended drivetrain and speed.

I currently make RWD cars just that, RWD, just because. But, I have nothing against using odd drivetrains or super fast params. Or super slow for that matter.

Also, pro, being the fastest class, is by default the most open ended class- and over the years, custom creators have raised the bar (perhaps too far, seeing, most customs top out at 50 including much of my own).

As for parameters handling the same- what do you expect? Parameters making, even with the somewhat helpful documentation out there, is still a gigantic crapshoot due to the tons of things changeable and the different variables that can make a car handle great one one track and horrible on another. People generally stick with what works, what's safe. Every time I did something unsafe- I ended up with a car that would be fine on one track, and horrible on another. I still try to do different things. I find the inertial feel Manmountain gave his cars pleasing- I used this on my set of the Isuzu VehiCROSS parameters, but the car still is oddly unstable on some tracks. The cars with mundane parameters on the other hand can handle right on everything, usually. I'm not a parameters professional- and I see no point in being one. Someone who is can usually make workarounds or come up with an okay set- but it's still a game of sacrifices. The stock car parameters generally stay within "safe" ranges if you have noticed.

If Re-Volt had a calculating physics engine, that calculated much of the handling based upon variables such as weight- I'd be very much interested in making realistic parameters (in terms of R/C handling, not real car handling), but because it's all about user input and what the human puts in, it makes being truly accurate almost impossible (you can get close, of course). I don't care to be all mathed out on it. Hell, Citywalker can do a param set for me if she wants. It's just not my cup of tea, haha.

All i expected was at least some 'sensible' things. While most cars are OK, some people just create 4WD trucks that outrace most pro cars. And that looks...weird, to say the least.

I'll admit that it does- but who's to say someone couldn't put a truck "shell" on a really fast R/C chassis and motor? I know for a fact people should try harder, as should I even- but I think the perfect handling is more absurd than the speed of custom cars. Now the Stagea is fun for some tracks- but when I released that car I realized I went too far with "perfect handling". Maybe if I release another car I'll have Citywalker do a param set (if she doesn't mind, of course ), and I'll have her gear it toward Advanced or Semi-Pro.

Ohhh, this turned out a long post, again...

Well, it is a game of sacrifices, as Adamodell said, but the “safe ranges of stocks” used for customs tend to be actually the safe ranges of Toyeca. Only Toyeca. Not much variety there, indeed. OTOH, anything, as lunatic or ordinary as you want, can be tweaked to acceptable performance on most any surfaces if the car-maker just takes the effort to race the vehicle through all stock tracks, even once. That set includes most everything that the game can throw at a car. If it has no problems on stock tracks, it has few if any problems on custom tracks. But yes, using safe ranges is a safer approach to that.

Adam, I can very well understand that param-mathing is not your cup of tea. Everyone is strong in a different field. I personally think that in the end it’s spontaneous teamwork that makes some of the best vehicles, i.e. someone (a tinkerer) makes a car with good parameter set and another (an artist) repaints it to glory. Or an artist makes a beautiful pot-shot and a tinkerer comes in and makes the beauty behave well on tracks. Or they are a team from the start (theMeandMe). I’m always saying that I’m a tinkerer, not an artist™. None of my own lunatics would have seen the light of RVZT without graphics help from others (or drive-feel testing of thirds, sometimes). One person alone is generally not versatile enough to make an all-round perfect car (and perfect is a dynamic value anyway ).

Aaand, it’s exactly that open-endedness of human input and no sanity checks in the software that makes the game so infinitely moddable. A purely calculating physics engine would exclude most advanced parameter tricks, I’m afraid, and thus the most interesting vehicles. It really is about that Gaussian curve of [most people staying with the safe and comfortable Toyeca range], whereas in a perfect world the infinite variety of human input should give infinite variety of parameters. BTW, I do use some of those safe rages in my parametering, only I tend to use the safe _principles_ and not safe values. E.g. the Inertia set of most stocks has a ratio of somewhere around 1:1.5:0.5, so I’m usually using this, unless a handling quirk requires otherwise. Same goes with the ratio of mass to spring stiffness, etc. The majority of the custom pros and superpros use the safe _values_ of Toyeca, though.

Urne, speed and rail-handling can be two different things. Yes, people make a speedy car for the thrill of speed, but a rail-handling car is made for less effort when driving it = instant gratification. For example, T-Bucket is an insane rubber-burner that tops out at some 80+ MPH, but it’s slippy as heck at those speeds. That makes it a challenge to drive, regardless of the speed, and I’m willing to bet that it’s not much used by the easy-win crowd. Eh, my Toy Plane (Concepts 2) has both speed _and_ rail-handling, and it’s still not easy to drive. And then there’s the other end of the scale – have a rail-handling car that never exceeds the top speed of 20 MPH (visually, the Veteran is a good candidate for that, only it’s made to be a pro in its current form). It’s what people want to get out of the game – a quick feel-good experience or a challenge of racer-against-the-game. (Or exploration of the world of custom creations, but that’s a bit off-topic ).

R6, your pack of pros and cons and Elven, your strive to win with imperfect cars – these are exactly what’s behind the Challenge Packs

About a truck shell on a formula chassis – well, with a “legend” in the readme it’s easy to explain anything I know, I have experience <laughs> But basically, without a good “reason” such things do tend to look odd. But again, in the end it’s a matter of taste that determines what ends up in anybody’s personal collection.

Oh, and Adam, I’d be honoured to do a param set for you. Only you’ll need patience with me and my tight IRL schedule.

Yeah sadly within stock ranges of "mainly" Toyeca. I don't think I've ever copied my params from Toyeca directly (but I'm sure through the Parameters.txt bloodline and all its babies it was originally sourced from there).

My first parameters were probably taken from TheMeandMe cars and modified to my liking.
My later cars used modified (some to much extent, some to little) parameters based on previous cars of mine with similar traits.
My latest cars use heavily modified params from my second gen cars, mainly. (And I'm biting off more than I can chew)

I'm sure all of it is Toyeca-esque in the grand scheme of things, but I feel better about kinda stealing from myself or others than from Toyeca ALL THE TIME.

As for your real life, something I don't have much of- that's fine. I'm not in a hurry to do anything right now. You can have as much time as your heart so desires. Nothing kills a release more than rushing.

[Subtle post] By the way, you DO know that if your not happy with a car's parameters, you can just edit them? [confused] [/subtle post]

Yes.


But it becomes kinda...you know, tedious, when 99% of the cars i download i have to spend additional time on reparaming them (instead of playing) because of either way too fast performance(100 km/h++ top speeds), too much of a Toyeca + more accel and top speed feel, or simply weird decisions like FWD Aston Martin's etc. that i dont like too much.

Rarely ever can i simply download a car and get into the game, because that usually means i'd have to try HARD to not win.
Mostly i find out that its too fast either because i lose badly to it, or because i end up driving into a wall because of instant acceleration...or cornering.

So i understand that people just want to keep it safe, but its just a few minutes of additional work when releasing a car. A bit of tweaking with frictions (you dont even have to understand it perfectly, just know a bit of general rules like when its too high, and how those 2 values are related to each other), then some top speed and engine ratio adjustments and its done. I have no idea how long it takes to convert a car, or even repaint one, but 5 minutes more or less shouldn't be an issue.

Its only an issue for whoever downloads a lot of custom cars.


I most of time either try to make the car behave somewhat like its real life counterpart, going by general info like "is fast" or "tailhappy at low speeds", or just balance it to be fine around stock cars in its class.

ElvenAvenger @ Jun 7 2011, 03:12 PM wrote: Yes.


But it becomes kinda...you know, tedious, when 99% of the cars i download i have to spend additional time on reparaming them (instead of playing) because of either way too fast performance(100 km/h++ top speeds), too much of a Toyeca + more accel and top speed feel, or simply weird decisions like FWD Aston Martin's etc. that i dont like too much.

Rarely ever can i simply download a car and get into the game, because that usually means i'd have to try HARD to not win.
Mostly i find out that its too fast either because i lose badly to it, or because i end up driving into a wall because of instant acceleration...or cornering.

So i understand that people just want to keep it safe, but its just a few minutes of additional work when releasing a car. A bit of tweaking with frictions (you dont even have to understand it perfectly, just know a bit of general rules like when its too high, and how those 2 values are related to each other), then some top speed and engine ratio adjustments and its done. I have no idea how long it takes to convert a car, or even repaint one, but 5 minutes more or less shouldn't be an issue.

Its only an issue for whoever downloads a lot of custom cars.


I most of time either try to make the car behave somewhat like its real life counterpart, going by general info like "is fast" or "tailhappy at low speeds", or just balance it to be fine around stock cars in its class.

Go download my car pack then when its up on RVZT.

Hmm, I guess I can understand where your coming from. Right now I'm experimenting different feels with params on the cars I'm converting so maybe they wont feel so Toyeca'ish to you.

Id have to agree on this one, however, throughout my time of making car parameters, i have made some really interesting and different ones, but i never release them because , as a general rule for revolt, people of this community just complain.

I wish that there were more people like you, adamodell, aeon, citywalker etc, who are interested in parameters, instead of "awesome bodykits" and "wicked paintjobs".

From what i have learned, models sell, and parameters dont matter, and its sad really if it wasnt this way, then maybe id still be making cars...

i know what you mean

personnaly i'd rather have an nice looking car with awesome parameters, not necessarily pro and 4wd.
Would be nice to have a rookie or amateur with realistic rc like handling
instead of an awesome looking car with the standard 4wd super fast pro params

I just think parameters themselves is so subjective that it's really hard to judge. Parameters is something you have to feel, and it's especially hard to judge them if the authors doesn't leave any notes in the readme related to the parameters and what their intention with them was. Describing how the parameters was supposed to feel like when you drive the car really helps me judge how well the author has reached his own goal. If I don't know how the car is supposed to feel, the only thing I can comment on is how well the parameters goes with the paintjob.

MOH wrote:From what i have learned, models sell, and parameters dont matter, and its sad really if it wasnt this way, then maybe id still be making cars...

Params are actually starting to matter, but just starting.
I make semi-realistic balanced params, which ain't your everyday Faileca-4234 MPH-railrocket-params.

On another note, it would be nice seeing you making cars again... the Chuck Norris of RV cars.

I've found that most people who make custom cars just base them on another car (stock or custom) and tweak a param or two, but they mostly just change the name and the look of the car and leave the params the same as the base car. Usually a Toyeca. Most people who work with parameters only know how to change a few basic things anyway.

I never understood people who create mods for games where the goal of the mod is just to give the player super-overpowered stuff. Those people are in every community supporting mod-able games.

One thing though is that sometimes the unbalanced cars are intended to work in sets, being balanced with each other, but not with other Re-Volt cars. In that case, you really should be playing with only the cars in that set (and I'm not sure anyone who plays Re-Volt EVER does this).

There are plenty of ways to make Re-Volt cars interesting and unique in the handling department, but it takes a lot of digging into params know-how and a lot of experimenting. Most people don't have the time or desire to do this. (I've said it before, but you can do lots of interesting things just tweaking the suspension, but the vast majority of cars still have the standard hard Toyeca suspension. Bo-ring!.)

One thing I would like to see someday is either a website dedicated to or some special label at RVZT that allows cars to be specified as balanced with the stock cars. That means that their performance gives them race times that are roughly on par with what can be achieved using the stock cars of the same class. That of course would require some testing by the site owner, who may be too lazy or disinterested to do this. It could also be a voted stat at RVZT, much like the track scores.

Oh yeah, and to roughly quote a frequent comment at RVZT:

"awesome! its really fast! gj"

No appreciation.

MOH @ Jun 15 2011, 02:35 PM wrote: i have made some really interesting and different ones, but i never release them because , as a general rule for revolt, people of this community just complain.&nbsp;

MOH, just release them. Not for those who'll complain, just ignore those people. Release them for the few who appreciate them. That's the point of releasing anything interesting / extraordinary. For example, my Toy Copter 2 (Concepts 2) is being found too difficult to drive, but I know you liked it and that's actually enough for me, because that means at least one person besides me likes it

The glass should be half full, not half empty.

@ above I agree.


Anyhow, any degree of variety would be welcome. I'd even be satisfied if someone took handling from existing RV cars other than Toyeca. Humma for example. Or RC Bandit. Or Pest Control. But everyone just seem to pick Toyeca's handling by default, add +20 mph to top speed and some smarter ones actually bother to increase engine ratios as well, but regardless its just a faster Toyeca.




And IMO on RVZT there should be a section with RC parameter cars(kept somewhat in line with what most RV stock cars are.) and Custom/Real parameter cars. For example, Citywalker's realistic parameters on some cars. They are fun, they can be fast, but it is really hard to keep up with RC parameter cars. Another thing is when someone goes 100% realistic values and makes their car a 200 mph monster.

Sure, maybe racing against 11 other cars with similar performance is fun on Hockenheim ring for example. But they are useless on stock tracks(mostly), and are no fun when racing against stock cars or when racing against them with a stock car.

And if parameters are only starting to become 'popular' or however you'd call that, i guess it will be better from now on. Especially when 1.2 is regularly(somewhat) improving RV.

Unless you totally lost motivation, you should keep making cars for those who actually appreciate them and ignore those who whine at anything short of Toyeca.

Bitching won't solve anything.

So wat would I change to detune one of these cars? I've been playing around with MOH's bugatti veyron, but I can't seem to get rid of the rail grip. What parameters do I need to change?

V3N0M @ Jun 17 2011, 07:27 PM wrote: So wat would I change to detune one of these cars? I've been playing around with MOH's bugatti veyron, but I can't seem to get rid of the rail grip. What parameters do I need to change?

Wrong thread(this one is dedicated to complaining about how everyone copies toyeca's handling onto their cars), but ill try to help anyway.


Lines that are related to 'rail' handling:
Static friction(on each wheel)
kinetic friction(on each wheel)
grip(on each wheel)

Most of time adjusting the first 2 values helps. They shouldnt be too high either, and not too different from each other.

example:
StaticFriction 1.530000
KineticFriction 1.500000

They should be the same on left/right wheels, and to get rid of rail handling you have to experiment with different values between front/rear wheels.

If that doesnt help, then you may need to ask someone who knows more about parameters

And then there's this nice tutorial: http://z3.invisionfree.com/Revolt_Live/ ... owtopic=36

On topic:
Yes, bitching wont solve anything which is why im experimenting with params all the time hoping to create something fun.

Maybe someone should start a project of remaking existing RVZT cars (that don't object in the Readme) and republishing them with balanced stats (make sure the AI's race times are fairly consistent with other cars in the class they're in, and make them fun to drive). Then they can republish the car with the name:

Old Car (balanced) (pro)
Old Car2 (balanced) (semi-pro)

Then everyone can yay/nay it in the comments as to whether they think its balanced or not.

And whenever we want to find balanced cars for Re-Volt, we can search for "(balanced)" in the car search tool.

Maybe the RVZT guy could add a new section for cars called "new params", then we wouldn't have to repaint them.

Maybe the RVZT guy could add a new section for cars called "new params", then we wouldn't have to repaint them.

Now _that_ I second with both hands.