Our ReVolt Pub

Awesome release! thanks a lot guys!

Italian translation

Seleziona Lingua
Seleziona Profilo
Crea Profilo
Carica Profilo
Cancella Profilo
Profilo già esistente!

I would also add the correct translation for this string:

Press Pause to continue = Premere pausa per continuare (and not "stampa pausa per continuare", it means "print" instead of "press" lol)

ah yes the translation

here's german:
Select Language - Sprache auswählen
Select Profile - Profil auswählen
Create Profile - Profil erstellen
Load Profile - Profil laden
Delete Profile - Profil löschen
Profile Already Exists! - Profil existiert bereits!

edit:
I just noticed: when you go to the profile selection is the language always english? it would be nice to fix it.

also since the track editor is not selectable from the game anymore he always has english as language so it would be good to make some kind of selection for that too.

and I would appreciate it if you could make it possible to either start the track editor in a window or make it support higher resolutions.
also a new track editor for full custom tracks and a car editor/creator would be nice to have as a "stock tools"

Citywalker @ Dec 18 2011, 03:38 AM wrote: Also, make it _optional_ to have profiles. I'm the only user of my computer and I don't need to enter the profile name every time.

Allow me to quote the changelog :

changelog wrote:Added Command Lines:
------------------- 
...
- "-profile [profilename]" to force the loading of a user profile and skip
  the Profile menu. [profilename] is optional, and if missing, the last selected
  profile is loaded.

EDIT: No more track editor support makes Dave a sad banana.

Thanks for all the work done in this update! Haven't noticed any bugs yet!

French translation:
Select Language----> Sélectionner langue
Select Profile -----> Sélectionner profil
Create Profile-----> Créer profil (or "Nouveau profil")
Load Profile-----> Charger profil
Delete Profile-----> Supprimmer profil
Profile Already Exists!-----> Ce profil existe déjà!

@Dave:
Ugh. Sometimes I tend to overlook things. Thanks for telling me.

In other news:
<sigh> I should have done this a long time ago: I’m going to make simplified AI for all stock cars, similar to the simplified Sprinter above. Then you can see them in action with the old AI, imagine them with Huki’s crash-recovery improvements (those really are improvements), and tell if you really need anything else.
Done thus far (UnderMax values, see the rest of AI params in posts above):
RC Bandit 0.187500
Dust Mite 0.062500
Phat Slug 0.062500
Col. Moss 0.187500
Harvester 0.187500
They were tested at Manmountain’s AI Project Test Track.

hilaire9 @ Dec 18 2011, 11:33 AM wrote:The bug is clearly seen in sharp corners and will affect all  tracks
made with similar corners. It ruins the AI of all of my tracks.
Here is a Flash video of the AI bug:  Click here to see Video

@hil: Ok, I see the problem. The cars are crashing into an obstacle outside the node path, so this is a valid bug. We'll try to improve this condition.

But in cases like the picture below, an unmovable obstacle is right inside the node path.



Can you say why you (and other track makers) had chosen to included these obstacles within the node path, and also place the lines cutting so close to the corner?

Was there a specific reason?

Pranav wrote:After reading the Changelog, in the Bug Fixes section, what does "Misc. multiplayer fixes" mean?

Just a few cleanups and fixes for multiplayer that aren't listed induvidually (hence miscellaneous).


And thanks for the feedback, guys. They will be addressed soon..

Not sure if this means anything or not, but it seems like transmission type is no longer 'calculated in game anyway' with this latest release.. at least for the frontend display.

I admit that when I made a car, BoneZ, I didn't fully care about that particular listing in the parameters.. and accidentally set it as 2 instead of 1. The car is FWD, but on the frontend it now lists as RWD... which doesn't really make sense for the car.

Bit minor, I know, but it's the first thing I noticed when giving the patch a quick spin.

It is not a problem with the AI nodes. It is a problem how the newest update
handles the track AI.

The problem is less noticeable in stock tracks because the AI in adjusted to
swing wider and slower around sharps turns. This is done to weaken the
AI on purpose (Revolt was made for children and they didn't want
to make winning the Gold Cup so hard that little Randy starts crying.
I would say most track makers do not care about little Randy).

Also, I have no idea how to adjust the AI on the tracks I am working on
to compensate for the new update so I stopped.

Saw this today while redoing the championships...



Also, when joining a lobby ingame, alot of the time half the players just disappear and I'm unable to race.

after AI improvement, cars like cougar get stuck in the track Rooftops2

Hello.
As promised yesterday, arch here is a video concerning the bug of the collisions between cars in arcade mode.But before, some explanations of the bug of the collisions and of notes and the suggestions concerning the AI.

Collision bug :
-This bug intervenes in the modes arcade, console and Junior RC. In the mode simulation, the collisions are correctly made (proof on the video )
-This bug intervenes in any track and it this product on quite my cars, whether it is stock or cars custom.
-The contact in the wall with cars is correct.


AI ZigZag :
During the tests, I noticed that all the cars made zigzag for low and average speed, but also for some length bends. But this big defect is not clearly visible on all the cars, but it sees itself especially on Humma, R6 Turbo and Sprinter XL.

My suggestion on the IA:
I think that you should guard the acceleration and the real speed of cars by the IA and also to return the new IA more faithful to AI nodes or to create a news option in AI nodes via MAKEITGOOD who orders the cars to follow strictly the pink and white lines in nodes in precise places (as wall IA for example ), I do not know if it is practicable, but I am only suggesting

Now, let us speak about the video. The video is in 2 parts.
The first part concerns zigzag, the video concentrates particularly on Humma who is now very badly managed by this new IA.

The second part concerns the bug of collision in arcade mode, in this part, I show very clearly by taking voluntarily a bomb to show you this bug, in brief in this part, everything is clearly shown concerning this bug, thus take time of looked, especially at the end in mode dev. (does this bug arrive to the other players? Nobody else except for me says it)

Video here : http://www.mediafire.com/?1zzfbf7t140fc7k
EDIT : The first part is played in simulation mode, second part is played in arcade mode

If you need the other information Jigebren and Huki, do not hesitate, I do not know if I gave you all the information which you need.


praful => A simple modification of AI nodes is enough for solving the problem of Cougar on this circuit, I have a corrective if you want. Cougar was already stuck before the update

I play the new update and I noticed that the Halogaland car `: Extreme Bizzarreries dont load the param end send error of loading the parameters and i have some repaint that dont load the color of them. Do you have idea about that.

(Sorry for bad english)

@Sitrix almost all cars get stuck if they stop before the slop.
Can you give me the corrective.

I'm also having the error of the guy above. ^
The way I fix it: simply make the car folder name shorter with some characters, and also edit the parameters, everything works fine after it. Here are two new suggestions:

IMPROVED AI ON/OFF
What about an option to turn the new improved AI on and off? I mean, it's hard to work with AI Nodes and AI parameters since it'll keep on changing each update? I'd find this option pretty useful not only because of the above reason, but also because some players might find hard to win offline races with the new AI, since newbies will also get this version of the game pretty early. Please, it'd be helpful!

INVISIBLE USER CARS
Some cars have a problem loading 32bit textures, and that's why they keep on showing transparent. Is there a way to fix this? I know I've been suggested somewhere in this topic about how to fix it but it doesn't seem to work. Any help?

That's a ton! I'm a fan of everything you've done by now with this update, thanks!

Not a keeper for me. Too much game crashes. Ill stick up with 825.

praful @ Dec 18 2011, 10:26 PM wrote: @Sitrix almost all cars get stuck if they stop before the slop.
Can you give me the corrective.

I corrected the problem long ago, I do not know any more which files are necessary, but I am going to give you the corrective

You go to have it tomorrow, by private message (because here, off-topic).

thanks miromiro its work

@Strix:
I see the problem with Arcade and lower mode collisions. I think this problem existed in older builds too (even the last 0825). Can you confirm? This bug seems to be introduced by the "Toytanic 1 star fix" (player gets a star right at the start). We will check this and keep you informed.

About the zig-zag AI, it's because we're still working on the car steering part. I think you might be interested in some detailed info and test builds, but it would be nice if you can send us your email address so we can talk in private..

@hil:

It is not a problem with the AI nodes. It is a problem how the newest update handles the track AI.
The problem is less noticeable in stock tracks because the AI in adjusted to
swing wider and slower around sharps turns.

There is indeed a change in the new AI, and you're right about the turns in stock tracks. Look at this image,



- The old AI takes the RED path. It takes an outer curve of the AI line. So in order to make the AI turn close to the corner, you probably had to set the node lines even closer to the corner (which is what track designers are currently doing).

- The new AI has a larger overview of the track, so it directly tries to take the DARK GREEN path.
- However, if this path is found to intersect the node edge, we keep reducing the "scanning distance" till the path is not intersecting the node edge anymore - hence the AI should take the LIGHT GREEN path.
- But the distance can only be reduced with time, and in the case of the picture above, it won't be reduced quickly enough to keep the AI within nodes. Which is why it is recommended not to bias the node lines so close to the corner.

The idea is to let the AI assess the path and find the best way to take a turn, without depending completely on the node lines. You'll see why this is needed in, for example, the turn over the curb in Nhood1 where all the cars usually crash everytime. But we're still working on this part, so this is not the final implementation...

Well, sorry but I feel there is a bit of overeacting about the AI modification...
We understand the disappointment if you're afraid we're breaking the legacy... but well, keep in mind that our goal is not to make the game worst, and we're likely not going to ask eg. you Hilaire to update all your previously released tracks.

As I'm afraid it was not clear enough, I'll try to explain some points.

The current AI is the result of several experiments. We started working on the AI quite some time ago, it was an interesting matter but it has soon revealed to be somewhat complex, and sometime quite an ungrateful task (a lot of work for a very slight result). So it has been eventually left aside to work on other features (like profile or custom support for example).
The work on AI was resumed a few time ago, but it was clear it would take long before we can get a really descent result. Still the modifications were done already, and we can't revert back to the old code in one click (no, the whole AI code is not inside a tidy box totally independent for the rest of the code).

So we reached a state where we had a lot of interesting new features but the AI code was still WIP. Were we going to wait until this part is definitely finished? We decided to make this release available now to let you benefit from theses features (and it was interesting as well to have some preliminary feedback about the current AI...). But keep in mind that the current AI code is just unfinished. That's also a reason why it is called an Alpha release... Timorous people, stay with Betas.

So, enjoy the improvements (there is, even in the AI ), report everything that should work but does not - we will try to fix that ASAP - but please refrain a bit from complaining about the AI not being as you think it should be, because this part will not likley be updated in a few days, and an option to switch new/old AI is unlikely to be seen.

On a side note, IMO the AI itself is not as bad as it's reported. There is probably another issue interfering since eg. Humma AI drives very well in Nhood1 on my computer (tried in Simulation mode, and Arcade as well).
EDIT: I agree though it can look quite stupid in ToyWorld1...

hilaire9 @ Dec 18 2011, 08:04 PM wrote:Also, I have no idea how to adjust the AI on the tracks I am working on
to compensate for the new update so I stopped.

Yep, I can understand the wobbly state you're currently in, and we're sorry for that. But well, a quite balanced AI line should be ok for both the old AI and any further modifications. And please... there is several improvements aimed at track makers that IMO widely compensate the current AI flaws.

Citywalker @ Dec 18 2011, 05:41 AM wrote:I told you, dynamic look-ahead and Bezier curves will change the cars’ paths too much.
[...]
There’s an example in Neighbourhood 1, too: the red car (second-last encountered). One racing line leads beside the car, and one leads under the car. Both lines lead AI racers safely past the large car tyres. It’s pure chance that the new AI didn’t start throwing AI racers right into the tyre as an “optimised” Bezier curve.

Hmm, why are you talking about Bezier curve here? I remember you already criticized their use before, but honestly, reading this sentence I have the feeling you don't even know how they are actually used in the current AI code, do you? Otherwise you'll have to explain me better how Bezier interpolation is likely to throw the cars in the big tyres...

And no, it's not pure chance the new AI doesn’t throw the car in the tyre, it's rather the opposite: it would just be bad luck in case it actually did.

I went back to the previous version (rv1.2a11.0825).

• Okay, I’ll cool it <smiles, no offence>, but I still think I have an idea what the Bezier curves are being used for (to smooth the shortcutting between AI line nodes).
• How would Bezier curves throw cars into the big tyre in Neighbourhood 1? Okay, this is not a very good example because I looked now and the track nodes are set up to precisely exclude the big tyres. But the actual saving grace comes from the fact that the large car stands far away from the previous curve, the AI cars have time to straighten up. If the large car were closer to the previous curve, then the interpolated smooth AI route that doesn’t follow the node line but instead makes a smooth curved shortcut to the tenth AI node ahead (i.e. the interpolated Bezier curve) might lead the AI racers into the tyre just the same way as they go into the track corner in Hil’s video. “The scanning distance can only be reduced with time.”

• So we have fundamentally three AIs now: old one goes outside the AI line, simplified goes exactly at the line, and new one goes inside the line in curves. Old is safest but inefficient, new is efficient but unsafe. Simplified is kind of a golden middle (after all, the racing line _never_ goes into any obstacles), although I’m not forcing anyone to use it. I just imagine it with Huki’s crash recovery improvements and can’t stop wondering...
• I agree, even my directly-follow-the-line AI can come too close to the trackside, but it happens a lot less than with the new AI (and it’s by design so).

“The idea is to let the AI assess the path and find the best way to take a turn, without depending completely on the node lines.”
• Yes, and it’s a good, ambitious idea, but historically the only absolutely safe path through a track is the node line. Sorry, but it is so.
• I understand the approach with the new AI. It looks at the track the way a human does, but it’s slightly blind. I explain: there’s an essential piece of data that the AI cannot currently access – human driver can see obstacles within node path and can avoid them. I’ll try to think of a way to let the AI “see” them. If you’re going to cut curves inside the AI line, then you have to think about how to do it safely. For now, I think the only safe way to let the AI cut into corners, is to have it follow the collision boundaries of the track, not node path (it’s what we humans do). But then an upwards ramp directly after a curve can be considered an obstacle, too, and I currently have no idea how to make the AI tell the difference. It does seem that the only way is to adapt the track AI nodes’ width to exclude the obstacles. Again, I don’t know how to do this automatically, and it’s way too much work manually...
• Btw, does the AI check the intersecting with node edge at car axis or with an offset for car width? If at car axis, then the cars will always keep hitting the track sides in certain curves because half the car is going to run outside the node edge. AI lines are usually made with the generic car width in mind, but does your direct calculation at node edge consider it?

• Anyway, I understand that the new AI is still WIP. I also understand that I sometimes act too fiercely. I know it’s my personal problem and I apologise for that. Still, I think I mostly know what I’m talking about But back to the new AI. Yes, it’s a WIP, so I hope something constructive comes out of all this criticising. (I _am_ trying to help, you know.) I’m sad to learn that the AI code modifications are irreversible and unswitchable. A WIP of this magnitude should have been optional, but currently it’s kind of forced onto players because it’s bundled with all the other improvements that some people don’t want to give up. I think that the AI has turned out so different that it deserves a development fork (of course it would have to be in a way that allows more-or-less easy rejoining later, either trackmaker features into AI fork or AI features into trackmaker fork). Then it can be safely tweaked without holding back the fun from other improvements. For now, there are people who would want to stay with the old AI for safety, but still use the other improvements (Elven and others). How can they do that?

• Anyway no. 2, the new V1.2 has way too many AI parameters. Yes, I did say once that we shouldn’t simplify the AI, but I forgot that not all people are tinkerers. a ) Most people would want a KISS (keep it short and simple) approach to car AI, and b ) the simplified AI allows much more variety in car design because it’s easy to adapt it to the car, while also being easy-to-do and precise. It gives much more freedom in car-making, because people have been adapting cars to the AI and the result is somewhat bland. Simplified AI is adapted to the car instead. Interesting designs can’t be driven by old AI, whereas they can with simplified AI. I don’t know yet about what the new AI can do with e.g. MOH’s drifters, but now there’s too much to tweak in parameters.txt even for me to try.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you guys shortened the maximum length allowed for names for car folders. In previous versions, car folders like "the_jesters_ride" would read in Re-Volt with no issues. But in the new version, I get an error with that same car that says "Can't load cars/the_jesters_rid/Parameters.txt". Then Re-Volt crashes...

I'm not sure if this is deliberate or just an oversight, but I'm just letting you know

lots of reaction about new patch

all i can say is im so worried about new driver letters,they are standing too high,couldnt fall a sleep cause of those letters,so deconcentrating,they are making me nevous!hope you will change it back

Finally update has come. I haven't seen any update in last months, but the change log is huge so that's good, although It has GOOD and BAD things.

First of all, GOOD:
- I really liked a new profile support and it has nice design.
(It would better if game would support 7z or zip files instead of folder it will take less space and will be easier to send save to someone, also when you play a lot of custom tracks you will get a bunch of files in profile folder so it will be confusing when you want to delete something, so it could be separated as 2 folders "stock" and "custom" and leave ini at same place.)
- I loved new custom things support for custom tracks, it just works perfect.
- Finally custom stunt/battle tracks support, where I waited for a long time, also works perfect.

And BAD:
-The only thing that is AI. People here are already discussed about it, so I can't say really much of it, but I saw that on most tracks turns, they crashes in corners witch screws up the fun.

Still update is great, you can really enjoy it online, but for offline play (at least with AI) you should to wait for next release and use 0825 Alpha.
I understand that "Alpha" means unfinished/WIP, I just wanted to review it and say my opinion.

Thanks for update.

yea thanks,forgot to say it!


like zappa said yesterday,you all ungrateful MF's!!

So now I can download any of already available 'Wolf R4' versions of certain tracks and they'll work?

Or do I need to move folders around etc.

I’ve been thinking™. And I found that I made an error of thinking before. There’s actually _two_ AIs, the old one and the new one. Simplified AI is just a set of car AI values that make the car follow exactly where the track AI is leading it. This means, along the node line for old AI and along the new route that Huki’s AI is calculating for itself. So simplified AI is simply the answer to Huki’s concern that it would take a long time to adjust the cars to the new AI. The same good-in-minutes procedure works for the new AI, too. The only “but” is that the old version AI is needed to determine the UnderMax values for the simplified AI. So, all is well when Huki gets his AI to cope a bit better with obstacles and sharp curves. Meanwhile, I’ll keep doing the simplified AI for stocks, so you can test them with old and new AI on all your various tracks.

ElvenAvenger @ Dec 19 2011, 10:12 AM wrote: So now I can download any of already available 'Wolf R4' versions of certain tracks and they'll work?

Or do I need to move folders around etc.

You're going to need to move stuff around. The track in this post should give you an idea of how to do it.

I got a huge problem with the new update, Revolt just instantly crashes as soon as I start it and I don't know what to do or how to link revolt 1.2 with WolfR4 (copied the instructions, did'nt work :/)

@Citywalker
Don't worry, no offence taken... (I know you know ) Anyway I'm going to clarify the Bezier stuff, as you're idea about it was actually biased. I've drawn a rough diagram since an image is often better than a long explaination.

The black line is the line the old AI was following. The red line is how you thought it worked, and the blue line is how is currently work.
For info, this is not the exact line the car will follow, it just the "target line". At any position, the car scan a bit forward on the target line to determine a target point, then the car will steer according to this point (not necessarily trying to go through this exact point).



As you can see, it doesn't shorten the path, in fact it's rather the opposite... So it's obviously not what actually causes the car to cut the corner, which IMO is probably rather a combination of:
- the fact that the scanning distance can be longer than before (but though it may look as an obviousness, I don't think this is the main reason).
- a piece of code that prevented the car to hit a wall is currently disabled (because it was not updated yet and was the source of other flaws).
- a modified steering reaction to a given target point.


Edit:
And as far as I'm concerned I totally agree with following the KISS principle as much as possible for the AI, I think it could be seen as a long term goal. But well, to reach that goal we're using the good old trial and error method... The real mistake here is probably to work directly in the main code, but we have not much choice... maintaining a fork is unfortunately not a valid option (it would induce too much extra job for us).

Btw, does the AI check the intersecting with node edge at car axis or with an offset for car width?

The car width is actually taken into account for the adaptive scanning distance code.
But in some case, like I think for the path shown in Huki's post, the AI nodes were willingly placed too close to a wall, which mean the car can't follow the target line anymore. Here you can see the paradox... Does the car has to or doesn't have to strictly follow the AI line? So far we were reproached for both, that's why I ask the question. Well, I think a good "wall avoidance" code should do the trick, we'll see...

Any changes to the AI turns 1.2 from a Revolt Update into a Revolt Mod.
The work trackmakers have done on the AI of their tracks is flushed down the drain.

Also, players at RV House are now divided into to groups of different
versions that can't play with each other.

hilaire9 @ Dec 19 2011, 08:01 PM wrote: Any changes to the AI turns 1.2 from a Revolt Update into a Revolt Mod.
The work trackmakers have done on the AI of their tracks is flushed down the drain.

Not necessarily. If they succeed in creating a better AI than now without any loss of function (or behaviour) when you use custom tracks/cars then I wouldnt call it a mod but rather a real improvement (patch).

Also it has been said here many times already but again: you are not forced to use this "patch". Its neither anything official nor is it a full release (thats why its called alpha). So its actually for testing purposes only.

Therefore its your choice if you accept the fact that you maybe have some improvements but also new bugs and fewer players to play with or stay with the "good old" official version

edit:
btw that brings me to the question: you still have the original (untouched) source code as a backup, right?

edit2: I found a new bug (although I'm not sure if it was already in previous versions):
collecting all 20 stars in stunt arena (or is it neighbourhoods arena? dont remember that name...) doenst unlock clockwork carnage.
also the stars you already collected arent saved that means you have to collect all of them again once you go back into main menu.

and another thing I noticed: on toytanic 2 one texture seems missing (I have seen it in other videos, I wonder why no one spotted that yet?) which is in toytanic definitely there, screenshot: http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/2369/texturej.jpg
also just before that area of the track is a light placed near the wall. for some reason that light appears now (after the last update) red instead of white, if you want more info about that I can upload a comparison picture.

and I would really appreciate it if someone could help my with my mentioned problem

for some reason I have no sound ingame. only when I insert my cd I can hear the game sounds (and the music). normally there should be sound even if the cd is not inserted, or? at least this counts for my netbook but apparently not for my pc...
anybody has a solution for this?

Kenny @ Dec 19 2011, 08:26 PM wrote:btw that brings me to the question: you still have the original (untouched) source code as a backup, right?

Yep, we do make frequent backups. But it doesn't mean a previous state can easily be restored. We're not using revision control software or stuff like that, so the only things we can do is comparing the whole current code with the whole code at a given time. And there was A LOT of other modifcations since we started updating the AI...

Kenny wrote:for some reason I have no sound ingame. only when I insert my cd I can hear the game sounds (and the music). normally there should be sound even if the cd is not inserted, or? at least this counts for my netbook but apparently not for my pc...
anybody has a solution for this?

Don't you have any error message of any kind? I just noticed when trying MythicMonkey's repaint (in which the aerial models are missing, leading to 2 error messages - and a crash that is now fixed) that just loading this car prevented most sfx to be played (but eg. the countdown or the piano in toyworld1 still plays).
A workaround is to simply open the in-game menu and resume. Does it work for you?

Dave&#045;o&#045;rama @ Dec 19 2011, 01:28 PM wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you guys shortened the maximum length allowed for names for car folders. In previous versions, car folders like "the_jesters_ride" would read in Re-Volt with no issues. But in the new version, I get an error with that same car that says "Can't load cars/the_jesters_rid/Parameters.txt". Then Re-Volt crashes...

There is indeed an issue with name longer than 15 chars (the 16th char is currently overwritten by an ending NULL char). Will be fixed...

Something else I noticed that is kind've odd. There are times when cars bunch up together like at the very start of a race and in very narrow sections of a track. The cars dont seem to even touch each other when they "touch" each other... if that makes any sense? (Pick a track with long straights and choose a slow car and try to get a faster car to push from behind then you'll see what I'm talking about.)

At first I thought it was either the inertia are the Hull.hull files on my cars causing the problem but this didn't happen with 1207 + WolfR4 which is what I've been using up to this point until a few days ago. I'm not sure if this is only happening to me but I thought its worth the mention.

I'll be using 0825 until the AI is fixed. Granted, the AI is very hard at Toy World 1. But if a track has tight corners, the AI sucks.

Also is it just me, or does the Humma have worse handling in the new update?

a piece of code that prevented the car to hit a wall is currently disabled (because it was not updated yet and was the source of other flaws).

<calms herself after a scream> Okay. Please do get this piece of code sorted out. If necessary, send me a PM, maybe I can help sort it out. Exactly how crucial is this piece of code?

a modified steering reaction to a given target point.

Modified in which way?

And as far as I'm concerned I totally agree with following the KISS principle as much as possible for the AI, I think it could be seen as a long term goal. But well, to reach that goal we're using the good old trial and error method...

<sigh> It’s not a long-term goal. It’s available here and now. 5 minutes per car. With a simple tutorial in Master Class section. I’m doing it right now, the rookie class is available already (http://www.freedrive.com/file/1554592). Just backup your cars folder first, because these are only parameters.txt files with simplified AI values and they overwrite the stocks. These cars follow the target lines precisely and still smoothly, for both old and new AI.
Re: trial-and-error:
Yes, programming usually is trial-and-error, with occasional major flashes of inspiration. At the current point, I can significantly shorten your trial-and-error, because I already had that major flash of inspiration®. The simplified AI is KISS to the max: quick, easy to do, and very precise, and it works with the new AI. It’s also one of the only two possible ways to adapt AI values to a car (the other is to calculate from all the content of parameters.txt, which is simply unfeasible).
You concentrate on getting the AI to not cut corners, I’ll give you the AI stock cars. And KDL agreed to build the trial-and-error into Car:Load, so it’ll be easily accessible to every Joe the Average Carmaker for their custom cars. No worries.

Btw, simplified AI runs into Hil’s Fukushima corner with the old AI, too, so that place is definitely an exploit of the old inefficient AI = one of the quirks that need to be handled somehow. It’s the age-old problem with software updates striving for backwards compatibility – old versions have quirks that need to be taken into account in new versions somehow. It’s why Microsoft’s document formats are so convoluted – decades of old quirks for old files are in there as crude and not-so-crude hacks. I sincerely hope that this AI-cutting-corners bug gets ironed out, then we may not need specific wall avoidance code at all. Why bug? Because Jig’s picture of target lines shows that it shouldn’t happen and thus the new AI shouldn’t hit the Fukushima corner at all or at least not at such a sharp angle.

And Jig, thanks for the picture. It cleared up a lot of misunderstandings for me.

Edit:
Amateur class is available, too:
http://www.freedrive.com/file/1554603

Skarma @ Dec 20 2011, 04:58 AM wrote: Something else I noticed that is kind've odd. There are times when cars bunch up together like at the very start of a race and in very narrow sections of a track. The cars dont seem to even touch each other when they "touch" each other... if that makes any sense? (Pick a track with long straights and choose a slow car and try to get a faster car to push from behind then you'll see what I'm talking about.)

At first I thought it was either the inertia are the Hull.hull files on my cars causing the problem but this didn't happen with 1207 + WolfR4 which is what I've been using up to this point until a few days ago. I'm not sure if this is only happening to me but I thought its worth the mention.

yea i noticed that too,cars are not touching each other but still u bump into other car

can someone say something about driver letters that are position in space please

Kenny @ Dec 19 2011, 08:26 PM wrote:on toytanic 2 one texture seems missing (I have seen it in other videos, I wonder why no one spotted that yet?) which is in toytanic definitely there, screenshot: http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/2369/texturej.jpg
also just before that area of the track is a light placed near the wall. for some reason that light appears now (after the last update) red instead of white

Yep, I wonder why this white polygon has not been reported more often. But I think it was already visible in v1207, wassn't it? The only way to fix it would be to edit the world file.

About the red light, I don't know yet the source of this issue, but it seems that it was already present in previous v1.2 releases. I wonder though whether v1.2 always has this glitch or if it was introduced by an update.


@Skarma, Cosmo_Kramer, etc.
There is actually an issue with the collsion in mode other than Simulation (I personally only use this mode so I couldn't have noticed it before), making the cars "remotely colliding". We'll check that.


@Citywalker
Well, I agree your arguments sound persuasive. However... does your method also work on ice? (eg. in market2). Because IIRC the bad behavior on ice was in fact the starting point to the AI revamp...


And just for info I'm going to be completely busy from right now until at least after Christmas, so the support will be slowed down for a while (but I'm sure you'll also have other things to do ).

nero @ Dec 20 2011, 05:30 AM wrote: Also is it just me, or does the Humma have worse handling in the new update?

Pest Control's AI is better than Humma's right now.

Citywalker wrote:<calms herself after a scream>

Hehe, this made me chuckle.

However... does your method also work on ice? (eg. in market2). Because IIRC the bad behavior on ice was in fact the starting point to the AI revamp...

They do. All run smooth like a pro driver, except the most difficult ones like Sprinter and Candy. And even those two eventually straighten out. (FYI, this kind of AI copes even with drift versions of Pest Control and Drifter, if you see what I mean.)
See for yourself, the links are in my last post.

Hello everyone ~

I realize I am a bit new to posting here so I don't expect my words to carry much weight until I am better known. I have been following the progress of this thread however, and I feel compelled to add my voice to Citywalker's in a call for using her simplified method for AI.

I won't tire you by making you read the exhaustive text that it is within my ability to produce in order to make a more compelling argument. Rather, as one who plays the game exclusively offline, and thus more interested than some in a working AI...I will simply state that it seems that it is at least worth a shot.

<asking with respect and completely out of ignorance...> How much time and effort would be involved in giving her idea a try to see if it helps straighten out the AI quirks?

MythicMonkey @ Dec 20 2011, 04:28 PM wrote: How much time and effort would be involved in giving her idea a try to see if it helps straighten out the AI quirks?

ALOT. CW works her fingers to the bone when dealing with AI.

Huki @ Dec 19 2011, 12:48 AM wrote: @Strix:
I see the problem with Arcade and lower mode collisions. I think this problem existed in older builds too (even the last 0825). Can you confirm? This bug seems to be introduced by the "Toytanic 1 star fix" (player gets a star right at the start). We will check this and keep you informed.

About the zig-zag AI, it's because we're still working on the car steering part. I think you might be interested in some detailed info and test builds, but it would be nice if you can send us your email address so we can talk in private..

Before this update, I have never had this bug of collisions, it is the first time. Often playing in arch, this bug is annoying, but I am going to content myself with the mode simulation

Skarma @ Dec 20 2011, 08:21 PM wrote:

MythicMonkey @ Dec 20 2011, 04:28 PM wrote: How much time and effort would be involved in giving her idea a try to see if it helps straighten out the AI quirks?

ALOT. CW works her fingers to the bone when dealing with AI.

Ssskarma. I ssspecifically make an effort to release my information in a way that makes it as easy as possible to implement. Yes, I “work my fingers to the bone”, but it is so that others don’t have to.
So, it would be rather easy to implement.
1) As stated in my previous posts, it’s KISS to the max: 5-6 runs of 20 seconds each and you have the AI for any car except the most difficult ones (and those can be run with a default fallback at first). And the criterion to watch is simple as heck: top speed in the hands of AI, in a straight section of a road, right after the start line, on a track available and linked in tutorial. It is very accessible to Joe the Average Carmaker. The tutorial even says exactly how many runs to make.
2) KDL is implementing the calculation part into his Car:Load tool so you lot won’t have to use a spreadsheet like I do.
3) Huki could already include the first two classes of stock cars with the simplified AI into the next release, the links are in my post above.
4) Huki could also code in a default fallback for those cars that don’t have an trigger to use simplified AI (just an idea), because it currently seems that the simplified AI with 0.000001 (the minimum possible value) runs anything decently (not always awesomely), it’s just that the fringe value is way better for ice and other assorted niceties.

So, what is difficult to implement?

Edit:
I can’t make it any more compelling than this:
http://www.freedrive.com/file/1554868
3-minute-AI for drift Pest Control. Includes the default fallback value (commented on the UnderMax line). Works for both 1207 and V1.2 AI, even with the default fallback.

Dutch Translation:

Select Language -> Kies taal
Select Profile -> Kies profiel
Create Profile -> Maak een nieuw profiel
Load Profile -> Laad profiel
Delete Profile -> Verwijder profiel
Profile Already Exists! -> Dat profiel bestaat al!

Kaj

Citywalker wrote: 2) KDL is implementing the calculation part into his Car:Load tool so you lot won’t have to use a spreadsheet like I do.

This will be of use to me if KDL ends up finishing this app. Unfortunately though, as things currently stand Car:Load won't open for me any more. It now crashes with a fatal error at startup every time. I was initially using this to take screenshots of the cars for making car boxes, but at some point it decided to stop working for me. I think it might have choked on a refresh of something since if I remember correctly, I was trying to use it to view changes to the skin as I made them. Maybe having both Car:Load and Photoshop open at the same time and having them point at/manipulating the same file caused some kind of problem. I'm not sure, but it's broken now and nothing I do seems to fix it.

I then switched over to Car Manager, but that one doesn't properly display the springs. They are there, but they aren't in the proper position or at the proper angle. At that point I decided to just put them both on the shelf until KDL got around to finishing them. Since it seemed this wasn't going to happen in the very immediate future, I have kind of put both programs on hold for the time being.

Now I take all my screenshots from replays, which works out fairly well because I use the race itself prior to being able to access the replay to take a little racing break from skinning and iron out any tuning issues. It's probably for the best anyway since you can't get an image with the same kind of dynamic motion in Car:Load that you can from capturing the car mid-race.

Citywalker wrote: 3) Huki could already include the first two classes of stock cars with the simplified AI into the next release, the links are in my post above.
4) Huki could also code in a default fallback for those cars that don’t have an trigger to use simplified AI (just an idea), because it currently seems that the simplified AI with 0.000001 (the minimum possible value) runs anything decently (not always awesomely), it’s just that the fringe value is way better for ice and other assorted niceties.

That's exactly what I was asking. I too, agree that adding some kind of collision avoidance code to the AI is a good idea, and one that will broadly address many current and new track layouts. Something that would allow you to place that rock or tire right in the middle of the node path and have the AI be able to deal with it. It seems like this would give track makers a lot more freedom (to make crappy hard to negotiate tracks I know, but good ones also) as well as giving the AI cars another tool for dealing with difficult track sections or hairy racing situations in general.

In addition to that however, I was just wondering how much work it would be for Huki to implement Citywalkers simplified AI values as she suggested for the stock cars. That work is already done. The numbers are already just sitting there. Sooooo...I was just curious to know if it would be a big deal to plug them in and see them perform. Maybe in the end it would be better to have a more generalized solution though, one that addresses both current and new additions to the users garage, such as the fallback code she suggested.

How about that, Citywalker? Would a default fallback code for the AI take the place of your simplified AI values?

For me personally, I would much rather have the AI deal with the standard track sections well, then not perform so well on the tricky stuff like ice...rather than making good ice AI and compromising the AI's performance on standard track sections. That's just my opinion.

Hello everyone.
I decided to get involved in this topic (sadly offtopic)

I was away and now I'll be passing those 2 weeks developing Car::Load and several mini stuffs for Re-Volt, so I'll be working on them (and fix nVolt rendering engine) . There is a great possibility of fully finishing Car::Load before the next year.

First, I never know that Car::Load crashes, usually, when I test them (now in 2 computers, I'll add a Virtual XP later to make them 3), crashes don't happen and thus, A reporting application will be needed.
But I guess it's something that can't wait, can you please copy paste the "details" of fatal crash?

About the latest version which has many fixed (v1.8.4) and can be dlded from This link.

For bug reports and other stuffs, I'll be supporting them in ORP.

best regards
theKDL

That's great news, KDL. I'll add comments related to Car::Load in the dedicated thread.

MythicMonkey @ Dec 20 2011, 09:58 PM wrote:Hello everyone ~

I realize I am a bit new to posting here so I don't expect my words to carry much weight until I am better known. I have been following the progress of this thread however, and I feel compelled to add my voice to Citywalker's in a call for using her simplified method for AI.

I won't tire you by making you read the exhaustive text that it is within my ability to produce in order to make a more compelling argument. Rather, as one who plays the game exclusively offline, and thus more interested than some in a working AI...I will simply state that it seems that it is at least worth a shot.

<asking with respect and completely out of ignorance...> How much time and effort would be involved in giving her idea a try to see if it helps straighten out the AI quirks?

Hi Mythic. Your feedback is appreciated. But I'm afraid most people have failed to read an important note in the readme / change log, regarding the AI.

From the Readme wrote:AI improvements are still Work-In-Progress and existing cars may not be fully compatible with the AI engine. Use at your own risk.

To answer your queries, we have no problem in using Citywalker's method (its a workaround/hack used to balance the AI and allow it drive properly with the original Re-Volt, by the way), only that it should not be needed anymore. We are working in a completely different line here.

In older versions, without the source code, the only way to modify the AI behavior was to edit some properties in the car files. And in this case, Citywalker has done a great job in finding the right values to modify. Now, with the source code, we are interested in directly working with the AI engine and do not want to use workarounds at this stage.

Our work was turning out to be promising, yet unfinished and incompatible with existing tracks and cars. But still we decided to release an update quickly in this state, so that people can use the other finished features such as custom support (and I'm happy to see RVZT tracks are already being updated in the new format).

Now, unlike computers we can't multitask. We have decided to finish our improvements first, and only then work on sorting out compatibility issues. So although right now, most of the existing cars zig-zag and AI cuts corners, this is all temporary (I repeat, the AI is still in an unfinished state, the current release is only to be used for the custom features). At the end, we are of course going to ensure compatibility with existing content, and we'll be ready to use Citywalker's workaround too if necessary, but not now...

---

And here is a little something for people who are interested.

Huki @ Dec 21 2011, 10:57 PM wrote: And here is a little something for people who are interested.

That is cool. By the way, is the AI improvement only for SprinterXL?
Also, when doing races, how will the Sprinter recover when it gets unbalanced in the ice region due to attack by other opponents or any other reason?