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Posted: 08 Dec 2008, 08:05
Aeon
Now, this confuses me. If you have two track pieces that you're trying to align using the world axis, sometimes they seem to move very smoothly when you drag the mouse, and sometimes they seem to click along a small grid. It seems to switch movement types back and forth at random, so sometimes it aligns very smoothly and other times it wants to snap from place to place, making it difficult to align anything.
Does anyone understand what causes this or how to control it?
And while I'm posting, how exactly DO you merge instances with the .w file using rvglue?
Posted: 08 Dec 2008, 19:18
jaseaka
aligning prms: copied and pasted from rva
Once you are in your level in the instance editing mode you can place your instance in the level by using the Insert key on your keyboard. Then you can cycle through the instances with the Plus (+) & Minus (-) keys on the number pad.
Now that you have the instance in your level you need to position it. To do this,position your pointer over it, left-click, and drag it where you want. You can also use the movment keys while you have the left-click held down. Once you get it somewhat where you want it you can use the Number Keys (1-9) on the number pad to rotate the model. (NOTE: If you change the axis to "World" instead of "Camera" you will find it easier to get your instance placed properly; you can change the axis with the Left-Alt key.)
here's a key table to help with placing prms also:
http://www.freewebs.com/revolt_f1/RV%20 ... _table.htm
Posted: 08 Dec 2008, 19:24
jaseaka
for merging prms into world file look in ur RVTMOD7 folder. find the folder DOC. find folder GLUE-USER. double click the file EXAMPLES. see example 4 for help
Posted: 09 Dec 2008, 01:09
Aeon
In response to response 1: I don't think you actually read the question.
In response to response 2: Thanks, hopefully that's what I was looking for. Trying to find information in the RVglue docs is a bit of a nuisance.
Posted: 09 Dec 2008, 01:10
zipperrulez
sounds confusing to me
Posted: 09 Dec 2008, 02:07
Aeon
Good grief, I don't know how anyone can stand to use these track editing tools. This garbage crashes more often than any other program I've ever used in my life.
Posted: 09 Dec 2008, 03:35
hilaire9
What tools exactly?
Posted: 09 Dec 2008, 04:34
Killer Wheels
Hi
Answer to your first question :
Try to drag an instance when you're close to it then far away from it. You should notice what you're looking for.
A little pic to explain :
The more closer the pivot point is from the screen plane, the more smoother you'll drag your instance (even if the pivot point is far away but steel on the plane).
I hope you've understand.
Posted: 26 Dec 2008, 05:51
Aeon
I understand but I don't find it to be true. I can zoom in as close as possible to an instance until the camera goes through it, but at that point, when I attempt to move the instance around, it snaps from point to point and it becomes impossible to align one instance with another.
Sometimes the snapping seems to go away momentarily but this seems to be utterly random, and I can't find any reason why.
And since no one seems to have a freaking clue what I'm talking about, I'm just going to conclude that trying to build tracks out of instances with any kind of decent alignment is impossible. At least the stupid lego tracks are aligned properly.
If someone had a program that would allow for better positioning of instances, this would be reasonable, but as far as I'm concerned trying to build decent tracks with track pieces is a lost cause. Maybe if you can build the entire track out of a few instances, but not with 20-30 track pieces.
Posted: 26 Dec 2008, 21:58
GWC
Aeon,
I too have the same problem. I think that the 3 main reasons, possibly in order of importance, are:-
1. A poor, old, ball mouse,
2. A dying, old monitor,
3. Poor eyesight.
I suppose that I could do something about all 3, but I just can't be bothered. One day, maybe.
Geoff
Posted: 26 Dec 2008, 22:58
Adamodell
Aeon @ Dec 26 2008, 01:21 AM wrote: I understand but I don't find it to be true. I can zoom in as close as possible to an instance until the camera goes through it, but at that point, when I attempt to move the instance around, it snaps from point to point and it becomes impossible to align one instance with another.
Sometimes the snapping seems to go away momentarily but this seems to be utterly random, and I can't find any reason why.
And since no one seems to have a freaking clue what I'm talking about, I'm just going to conclude that trying to build tracks out of instances with any kind of decent alignment is impossible. At least the stupid lego tracks are aligned properly.
If someone had a program that would allow for better positioning of instances, this would be reasonable, but as far as I'm concerned trying to build decent tracks with track pieces is a lost cause. Maybe if you can build the entire track out of a few instances, but not with 20-30 track pieces.
...That sounds like what I would sound like if I attempted track making. I have an OCD for perfect alignment any more... so yeah.
Don't get too worked up about it, I think you should stick with cars. Don't try to be a jack of all trades but master of none, I'd just go back to cars since you seem to be really knowledgeable about that kind of thing. This is why I say no to track making, I have enough frustration in my life.
Posted: 27 Dec 2008, 05:16
zagames
I did create an online tool for this, but it only had 2 pieces to work with. More of a demo/test to see if it was possible. Now that I finished Winter Park, I might have more time to work on the website again, and make that tool more complete.
Posted: 27 Dec 2008, 06:38
Aeon
No one else is going to make futuristic tracks for me to race my futuristic cars on, so apparently I have to do it. If someone else wanted to crank out some futuristic tracks, I'd happily focus on the cars. But no one in this community is interested in making anything besides the stuff they want to make, and no two people want to make the same stuff...
Zag - why not an OFFline tool for this?
Posted: 27 Dec 2008, 11:32
urnemanden
When you ask a question like this, i guess you are moving the instances in "Camera" mode?
Well, Crone learned me a method he used for hes upcomming instance-track.
But if this don't work, please be patient. He might reply with exactly what he does
1) insert the instance you want to be inserted.
2) after inserted and moved to the place you want it, press the ALT tab to switch from camera to World.
3) Now use the TAB to switch the way you move the instance. Switch to X, Y or Z. If the instance moves the wrong way, delete it and try again.
In the start it is hard to tell what way X, Y or Z is, but you will find it very easy after working a long time with the track itself.
Posted: 27 Dec 2008, 12:09
Aeon
I already do all that. I guess the problem is that everyone assumes I'm new to track making and I'm not. I've been working with MAKEITGOOD for over two years, and I know how pretty much everything works.
The question is not "How do I align instances?", its how to fix a problem with aligning instances. So far, I don't think anyone has even acknowledged the problem that I'm talking about. Lets see if I can make it stand out a little more.
The problem is that instances snap from place to place making it impossible to align them properly.
Now, sometimes this seems to turn off and the instances slide around very delicately, which is what I'd want and need in order to align them properly. However, I can't seem to identify any way to toggle this behavior.
Posted: 28 Dec 2008, 03:06
urnemanden
I understand your problem, but i don't know any solution. I guess the Instances Edit mode wasn't build for making tracks, but for inserting accessories. That'll be my answer.
Posted: 28 Dec 2008, 03:10
Aeon
I agree, and I also don't imagine that the instance file could be all that complicated. For anyone who has the tools to work with such things, it seems like it would be easier to create a program that will position instances through coordinates than it would be to make a track with the instance editor. If you had a program to do it, there wouldn't be any issue with putting things exactly where you want them and building instance-based tracks would be ten times easier.
Posted: 28 Dec 2008, 08:11
Adamodell
Aeon @ Dec 27 2008, 02:08 AM wrote: No one else is going to make futuristic tracks for me to race my futuristic cars on, so apparently I have to do it. If someone else wanted to crank out some futuristic tracks, I'd happily focus on the cars. But no one in this community is interested in making anything besides the stuff they want to make, and no two people want to make the same stuff...
Zag - why not an OFFline tool for this?
At least you have a good reason.
As for me, I'm not really interested in doing anything, I'm just like a lame duck or something, maybe the community's equivalent of figurehead.
Zach is pretty knowledgeable about online tools... but I don't think he's an expert at actual programming lol...
Posted: 02 Jan 2009, 04:11
Killer Wheels
Well I have such a program wich can align instances onto a grid you choose. It was designed to be used with some new lego pieces with 1000x1000x125 RV-units, but as I said, you can choose.
This program still need some updates before I send it.
Going to see if I can do something soon.
++ Good year every one.
Posted: 24 Jan 2009, 07:32
Aeon
Wouldn't it be easier just to create new track pieces that aren't poorly mapped to a bunch of different textures and merge all the track pieces in Zmodeler, reassign the single texture and then import the whole thing as an instance into the game, without an NCP and merge it with the track W?
It seems like it would be easier to align things perfectly with Zmodeler than with MAKEITGOOD. And as long as the instances are merged with the W then load times shouldn't be an issue. Heck, custom track pieces would likely run way faster than those abominable track editor pieces.
Posted: 24 Jan 2009, 14:08
nero
Aeon @ Dec 8 2008, 03:35 AM wrote: Now, this confuses me. If you have two track pieces that you're trying to align using the world axis, sometimes they seem to move very smoothly when you drag the mouse, and sometimes they seem to click along a small grid. It seems to switch movement types back and forth at random, so sometimes it aligns very smoothly and other times it wants to snap from place to place, making it difficult to align anything.
Does anyone understand what causes this or how to control it?
And while I'm posting, how exactly DO you merge instances with the .w file using rvglue?
Well,to merge instances into worlds,here is an example:
Code: Select all
create something
editor.w
myinsts.fin
Hope this helps you.
Later,
Nero
Posted: 24 Jan 2009, 22:04
Killer Wheels
Aeon @ Jan 24 2009, 03:02 AM wrote: Wouldn't it be easier just to create new track pieces that aren't poorly mapped to a bunch of different textures and merge all the track pieces in Zmodeler, reassign the single texture and then import the whole thing as an instance into the game, without an NCP and merge it with the track W?
It seems like it would be easier to align things perfectly with Zmodeler than with MAKEITGOOD. And as long as the instances are merged with the W then load times shouldn't be an issue. Heck, custom track pieces would likely run way faster than those abominable track editor pieces.
Well, lego pieces aren't "abonimable", depending who use them to make tracks.
And I'd like to said "yes" when you say it'd be easier to use Zmodeler, but I dont, here's why :
If you are able to use such a 3D program, you can make your own pieces by yourself, nobody else have to build you anything.
Zmodeler is quite good but you can't set vertex colors nor smoothing groups definitions for *.ncp files.
One big instance (*.prm) is a bad way to make a track, simply because it'll be poorly optimized.
I hope you understand,
Greetings,
KW
Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 00:03
Aeon
Killer Wheels @ Jan 24 2009, 08:34 AM wrote: If you are able to use such a 3D program, you can make your own pieces by yourself, nobody else have to build you anything.
Zmodeler is quite good but you can't set vertex colors nor smoothing groups definitions for *.ncp files.
One big instance (*.prm) is a bad way to make a track, simply because it'll be poorly optimized.
I only know enough about Zmodeler to work with cars and a tiny bit of UV mapping. Making decent track pieces seems to require Max, which I don't have. What I do have is the ability to make track pieces in Blender, UV-map them in Lithium Unwrapper, bend them with prmbend and then merge them altogether in Zmodeler so that they'll be closer aligned than they could be with MAKEITGOOD.
I have no clue what vertex colors or smoothing groups are.
Why is using one big PRM, merged with the .w file using RvGlue, poorly optimized? How is that worse than making a track out of multiple PRMs and merging them with the .w file?
Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 04:39
SkindupTruk
Happy 2009 all,
All the track .prm files are positioned using the one track .fin file. A .prm file is a mesh with textures, they use them for both instances and the car shapes.
I converted the binary .fin file to plain text and it contains a list of instances, one is shown below. You can see that there are xyz for the position, and then a 3x3 rotation matrix
(wiki link).
The unknown numbers look to be color info but I haven't confirmed that yet. Again, I haven't made a tool to convert this info back to binary, which would allow you to change the positions and rotations of instances very accurately.
Code: Select all
-------------------------------------BEGIN INSTANCE 2
name TREE1.pr
unk1 0
unk2 0
unk3 0
unk4 0
unk5 128
unk6 128
unk7 128
unk8 0
unk9 0
unk10 24
unk11 79
unk12 0
unk13 0
unk14 0
unk15 128
unk16 68
float1 -6770.17
float2 -1311.7
float3 3597.82
float4 0.77
float5 0.06
float6 0.64
float7 -0.05
float8 1
float9 -0.04
float10 -0.64
float11 0
float12 0.77
-------------------------------------END INSTANCE 2
Posted: 25 Jan 2009, 05:56
Aeon
Sounds good. You create the tool and I'm sure it will get plenty of use.
Posted: 27 Jan 2009, 02:57
Killer Wheels
Hi, this is quite good !
You can check wich unknown numbers are by editing an instance within MAKEITGOOD, for example.
Now to answer Aeon :
If you wish to learn about Max you can try Gmax wich can achieve about the same things as 3dsmax, even if it's lighter. That way you'll have access to the smoothing groups and vertex colors.
If you do not have time or whatever, simply try to make instances that fits well together, as in the Jimk's Off Road Kit. This might be a good thing for aligning and make multiples tracks within MAKEITGOOD.
Now, why is a multiple meshes's track better than one mesh's track ?
This is because of Re-volt's 3D engine.
It's harder to work with one big mesh at each rendered frame than one little + one little + nothing because it's outside of the screen !
That simple.
The 3D engine render one mesh, then another, and for every polygon check it's vertices positions and normals, etc...
Imagine a tree :
it's easier to get one leaf if you choose one branch, then if there is another one choose the next good path and climb that way to reach one leaf
THAN
if you check every leaf until you find the right one.
I hope you understand,
Greetings,
KW